Да бъдеш уке!
Публикувано: 21 май 2005 - 21:12
Напоследък поведението на човек, с когото тренирам ,ме накара да се замисля отново за ролята на уке в Айкидо.
Дали се отдава необходимото значение (имам в предвид по-зрелите практикуващи и ученици с поне 2-3 години опит) на партнирането.Или то е само досадна част от тренировката?Защо някои практикуващи умишлено пречат на тори, особено ако той/тя е с по-ниска степен или по-слаб(а) физически,или двете едновременно?
Това е толкова важна част от тренировката,колкото и да бъдеш тори.Да бъдеш уке означава, поне за мен,да даваш възможност на тори да се учи.Да му се довериш физически напълно.Да даваш от себе си на другия,за да може той да се развива.Това ,пак поне според мен, е проява на любовта, за която толкова много се говори в Айкидо.Но давайки, уке получава-вижда техниката от друга страна, вижда възможни грешки, които може би сам допуска.
На уке се дава възможност да овладее техники ,начин на поведение, с които да предпази тялото си от тежки наранявания,в следствие прилагането на дадена техника(тук не говоря само за укеми).Тори трябва да даде тази възможност на уке.А ако това уке е партнирало безобразно-заслужава ли тази възможност?Заслужава ли и то коректно партниране,когато заеме позицията на тори?
Откакто се занимавам с Айкидо много често си мисля затези неща.Как да постъпваш с човек, който нарочно пречи на работата ти.Какво да правиш с уке, което явно не желае да допринесе за развитието ти? Трябва ли да се стигне до сериозни наранявания по време на тренировка, само защото някой има прекалено много комплекси и ги избива в залата,или просто няма желание да се развива като уке?
Ако и на вас ви се е случвало -пишете!
Публикувано: 21 май 2005 - 21:35
Публикувано: 21 май 2005 - 22:35
Публикувано: 21 май 2005 - 23:55
Публикувано: 22 май 2005 - 08:38
едно уке може и десет години да тренира ама ако няма дух за АЙКИДО просто никога няма да се научи да партнира както трябва
мъдрият човек върви със сведена глава по нисък от тревата
Публикувано: 22 май 2005 - 11:52
Публикувано: 22 май 2005 - 12:51
Ако уке те затруднява би трябвало да си благодарна, защото това е шанс да се научи нещо.
С това съм съгласна,но конкретния случай не е такъв.Имам в предвид умишлено спъване на работата.А не помощ.
абе я му нашокай репата на тоя бастун
ДА то това е най-лесно.Но редно ли е да се държиш така на татами?
Искаше ми се да обсъдим проблема пронципно.Доколко обръщате внимание на това да сте уке, а не с какви укета работите.Все пак през една голяма част от времето на тренировка сте в тази "роля".Как се държите, какво правите, как помагате,когато сте уке?Какво значение отдавате на тази част от работата в Айкидо, как влияе на вашето развитие, на какво ви учи?
Или просто една част от времето за трениране,която минава като неприятно задължение и не се използва като пълноценна част от практиката?
ПП:Ама аз му "нашоках репата".Ами то всичко си има граници и като ми писне и ми падне пердето-да не си ми уке
Публикувано: 22 май 2005 - 19:40
Да, защото тренировката си е за теб. Ако в залата, където трябва да забравиш всякакви негативни неща (мисля, че това бе смисъла на един твой пост от друга тема), се оставиш на "тъмната сила" какво остава за навън?
А ако това уке е партнирало безобразно-заслужава ли тази възможност?Заслужава ли и то коректно партниране,когато заеме позицията на тори?
Вземи най-доброто от него, в смисъл изпробвай границите на техниката си. Аз лично не обичам много ни кую и затова самия ключ винаги го правя бавно и доста леко. Имах случай на един семинар, в който един момък с хакама се опита да блокира. на другата му ръка направих техниката както си трябва (или малко по-брутално, ама не мисля)и му избих тези мисли от главата. Има и втора възможност-умай го(излъжи го). Като жена реално това трябва да ти е в природата попитай просто какво правиш грешно. така ще му се наложи или да обеснява или да партнира както трябва (повечето обесняват и казват неща, който могат да бъдат взети или поне да помисли върху тях)
Как да постъпваш с човек, който нарочно пречи на работата ти.Какво да правиш с уке, което явно не желае да допринесе за развитието ти?
чак до сериозни не, ама
Трябва ли да се стигне до сериозни наранявания по време на тренировка, само защото някой има прекалено много комплекси и ги избива в залата,или просто няма желание да се развива като уке?
Боят изгражда, не е като да разгражда
Това как се държа зависи от партньора ми. Видя ли, че има желание да учи тоест възприема и се опитва да прави нещата, блокирам, за да покажа грешки и при нужда обеснявам. Ако му е все едно и на мен ми е така и се "търкаляме по дюшеците по цял ден". След това обаче и да ми се поклони, за да тренираме, не съм го видял (последното ме е вкарвало и в спорове с приятели, но аз си мисля, че щом Сайто Сенсей го е смятал за нормално, аз мога да последвам примера му)
Как се държите, какво правите, как помагате,когато сте уке?Какво значение отдавате на тази част от работата в Айкидо, как влияе на вашето развитие, на какво ви учи?
За развитието ми е полезно, макар от време на време и сам да трябва да си го обеснявам ти си изброила основната част от причините. мога да добавя само две неща: когато си уке детайлите се хващат доста по-лесно. второ: на мен често ми се случва кагато обяснавам нещо и аз да го разбера, а не само да го чуствам.
Публикувано: 22 май 2005 - 20:15
Тъй като питаш за подобни случаи щe ти разкажа историята на една жена, която срещнах на един семинар. Разказа ми как започнала да тренира преди 30 години тука в швеция, когато айкидото е било още ново. Жените и мъжете тренирали по отделно едните в ляво, другите в дясно. Понякога тренирали заедно, когато нямало достатъчно жени партньорки. Треньора й бил 1 или 2 дан (не помня) и сина му тренирал с тях. Сина му почти винаги правел проблеми на всички жени. Треньора й спрял да тренира след известно време (не помня причината) и също така и сина му. Преди 2-3 години жената срещнала сина на улицата, познали се поприказвали и той казал "помниш ли когато тренирахме едно време айкидо..." и тя казала "ами аз все още тренирам" и той "е тогава трябва вече да си стигнала до черен колан" и тя "ами още преди няколко години взех 4 дан" и той с отворена уста "ами че това значи че имаш по-висока степен от баща ми!"
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 06:58
И при мене беше така първата година. Това го правят обикновенно най-неопитните мъже и то тея с ниско самочуствие и го правят само спрямо жените. Страхливци. ...
да се прокрадва тука тъмната страна усещам аз ... пазете се
(да не ти казвам аз с какви жени съм тренирал - опитват се да ми извадят джигерата, колкото и да съм внимателен и усмихнат. и като им напомниш , че са на тренировка, те изкарват какъв ли не)
От опит знам, че от такива ситуации човек се учи най-добре. Тогва виждаш кое работи и кое - не. И доколко можеш да запазиш самообладание и да не се поддаваш на изкушението да му "покажеш къде зимуват раците"
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 11:20
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 12:49
Ако все пак искате да продьлжите да тренирате Айкидо, донякьде има изход от такива ситуации в които партнюра не се поддава - става вьпрос за АТЕМИ И КЯИ. Това е изхода, няма друг, ето защо тези двете са едно цяло с всяка техника в Айкидо, те трябва да се правят винаги. Забелязьл сьм 4е не се практикуват от много от трениращтите Айкидо в Бьлгария, а трябва!!!
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 13:08
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 13:41
Eто това е нещото което не ми харесва в Айкидо - 4е да направиш нещо уке трябва дефакто сам да си направи техниката и това е винаги, колкот и да си тренирал, винаги ще има такива техники.
донякьде има изход от такива ситуации в които партнюра не се поддава - става вьпрос за АТЕМИ И КЯИ
Не мисля така - техниките си стават, зависи кой на кого ги прави, а що касае атеми, хубаво, ама атеми определено не е панацея, най-малкото щото и уке може да удря в същото време т.е. според мен не бива да се разчита на тях, за да си направиш техниката...
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 14:43
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 17:31
Определено не притежавам нужните умения, за да мога да се упражнявам, държейки книга в ръка...
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 19:44
Това е много грешно разбиране
Забелязьл сьм 4е не се практикуват от много от трениращтите Айкидо в Бьлгария, а трябва!!!
Много си прав
Това мнение е редактирано от Toni Montana: 23 май 2005 - 19:47
Публикувано: 23 май 2005 - 20:22
Аз пък да споделя, че това е във всяко БИ, когато става въпрос за начинаещи, а и в всяко БИ има по-измислени и по-практични техники. Вземи прочети малко, пък било и само този форум.
Не може да хванеш новоначинаещ (ей тази дума ме вдивява ) и да го счупиш, защото видите ли, ние практикува айкидо, което и за улицата става-дето се вика самозащита не може обаче и винаги да се оставяш и да се "хармонизираш", че тогава освен за смях, за нищо няма да ставаме. ето една малка статийка (Благодарности към Историка за Линка):
Това е една от малкото статии за айкидо, които ми харесват в последно време!
Is Aikido a Martial Art ?
At first sight of the above title I am sure that a lot of Aikidoists will be angry, they will assume that this is yet another attack on the credibility of Aikido by other martial artists. On this occasion they are totally wrong, I have been involved in the martial arts since 1956. I first started in Judo at the Hut dojo at Hillingdon West London better known as the Abbe School of Budo. I had the opportunity to study Karate with Harada sensei and Kendo with Sensei Tomio Otani. So with my background I feel that I have something to offer to this debate.
The Aikido that I first saw being demonstrated by Kenshiro Abbe sensei in 1956 was without doubt a positive martial art. I was immediately impressed by its positive techniques and power, and in those early days my fellow martial artists and I were in no doubt that we were witnessing a devastating new form of self defence as demonstrated by Kenshiro Abbe sensei.
Kenshiro Abbe sensei the Legend
Kenshiro Abbe sensei had begun his martial arts career at the age of 5 and became a legend within his own lifetime, at 18yrs he was the youngest ever All - Japan Judo Champion and at the same time he was also the youngest ever 5th dan at the world renowned Kodokan. He later became the oldest ever All – Japan Judo Champion at 33 yrs of age.
When Abbe sensei arrived in the UK in 1955 he was 8th dan Judo – 6th dan Karate – 6th Kendo -6th dan Kyudo – 6th dan Aikido. The question must be asked, would this Budo master have studied Aikido if he did not believe it to be a martial art.
It is my opinion that Abbe sensei would not have studied Aikido as it is today.
Please break my finger
As a direct student of Abbe sensei, I asked one day whilst we were travelling to a seminar. “ Sensei, how did you first become a student of O’Sensei and Aikido?”. He smiled as he reminisced for a few moments, he then told me the following story, he said that he was a young man at the time and the Judo Champion of All – Japan and travelling on a crowded train across Japan to yet another Judo competition, sitting opposite him in the same carriage was an old man who was trying to strike up some conversation with him, Abbe had his eyes closed as he tried to sleep.
The old man said to him, “ I know who you are”.
Abbe sensei replied rather modestly, “ Everyone knows who I am, I am Kenshiro Abbe Judo Champion of all Japan”.
Out of politeness he asked the old man who he was, The old man replied “ I am Morihei Ueshiba the founder of Aikido”.
Abbe sensei nodded politely and suggested that they now try to get some sleep, the old man suddenly stuck his hand forward and offered the smallest digit to this powerfully built young man. Abbe was stunned as the old man said in a commanding voice, “Please break my finger”.
Abbe thought to himself, ! “I will break his neck if he doesn’t go to sleep”. Abbe was now becoming irritated by this old man. He immediately grasped the old mans finger in an attempt to shut him up, he freely admitted that in his frustration it was his intention to break this offending digit, yet to his total amazement he was suddenly slammed onto the carriage floor. As he lay prostrate and unable to move, he knew he had to study with this master. He asked Osensei if he could study with him, OSensi agreed . Abbe stayed with OSensei for ten years.
OSensei had spent many years studying various martial arts. I believe that the art of Daito – Ryu and Ju – Jitsu had more influence on the development of Aikido than anything else he had studied, we also know he went to Mongolia to fight and this would be a perfect opportunity to test his many skills in a real situation, I am in no doubt that this incredible man was a true warrior and modern day samurai.
A Knife for my Enemy
It was this early positive style of Aikido that Abbe sensei brought to the UK in 1955. At this time there was also the first Japanese Aikido master in Europe, this was Master Tadashi Abe 6th dan who was based in France. He was a small man even by Japanese standards, but to my mind he was the hardest man I have ever met. He was very similar to Sensei Kazuo Chiba who I met recently in London’s West End. It was our first meeting for many years.
When Tadashi Abe travelled he always carried a knife with him, this was not for his own protection, but to hand to his shocked opponent, he would say “Please, this is for you”.
He said that an opponent with his bare fists was no challenge, but a man with a knife was
“very interesting”. I think we can safely assume that as these teachers were so hard and positive, then this must have been the style of Aikido that was being taught at the Hombu dojo in Japan. This was the Aikido of OSensei as a younger man, the Aikido being taught today is that of OSensei as an old man.
There is no doubt that as people get older they lose the spirit of their youth and become more philosophical in their approach to life. My father who was once regarded as one of the toughest guys around in his time, later in life he found his peace taking his dog for long walks.
I believe that we have two Aikido’s, Traditional Aikido which if truly traditional ( this word is much abused) is the martial side of Aikido, the soft fantasy and dancing style of Aikido should simply be categorised as an “art”. Those who are true traditional aikidoists will take no offence to this article, yet the dancers will probably be offended and I care little for their feelings as I honestly beieve that this soft Aikido has no more right to call its self a martial art than synchronized swimming has a right to be in the Olympics.
The training and exercises in those early days was very hard and physica , with Karate style kicking and punching a very integral part of our warm up, followed by 200 press ups on the backs of the wrists with fingers pointing both inwards and outwards. Very often while you were in the raised position, Abbe sensei would instruct another student to sit on your back. As we were the only group of 5 dan grades in the UK, and all in one dojo’s.
Then this was the training that was applied to all the fledgling Aikido dojos in the UK.
Yet we are now the only organisation in Aikido to my knowledge still doing these press ups. The purists say “ These press ups are bad for you “ what they really mean is they can’t do them. This is all a part of the watering down of traditional Aikido.
Aikidoists are often accused of practising “ choreographed aikido” and to be honest I must admit that these claims are very often justified, with uke (attacker) preparing to break fall long before he makes his attack. Most of them attack off balance, therefore making any multiples of techniques possible with the minimum of effort, and of course, this makes tori ( defender) look “fantastic”. What is really sad is that these people believe that this is good Aikido.
Kenshiro Abbe sensei would always say to us that “ two” students are training at the same time, one is uke who is learning and improving his attacking techniques and his opponent tori is also learning and improving his defensive techniques.
Whilst training with Abbe sensei, if uke’s foot or heel came off the mat as he attacked,
Abbe sensei would give the offending leg a good whack with a shinai (bamboo sword) . He would then say “ My English is very bad, but my shinai speaks fluently”.
If uke attacks on balance, then it is obvious that tori’s technique must be good and strong to throw him. And as Abbe sensei said so many times “ Two students are training”.
Mark Eastman a strong young dan grade with the ESTA went on a seminar a while ago
With a 6th dan, The 6th dan refused to use him as a uke , stating, “I cannot use you as you do not harmonise with me” Mark was not being difficult , just attacking on balance.
Many of the hard traditional exercises have now changed to a simple warm up routine with jumping up and down on the spot and lots of deep spiritual discussion. Hard exercise is now considered to be aggressive and not in harmony with the true spirit of Aikido.
Abbe sensei said that hard training developed the spirit. He also referred to ki during those early days as he demonstrated the power of his technique .When asked to explain the meaning of ki, he said not to worry about ki as that would be a part of our training and development. He then said “ Only when you reach first dan will you be able to understand the true concept of ki as a further extension of your Aikido. I still believe that line of thought, and the instructors in our dojos very rarely speak of ki although it is taught as a important and integral part of our training and study.
Although ki is generally recognised as the spirit and breathing during the application of technique, every teacher and student will offer a very wide and varied and sometimes bizarre interpretation of the meaning of this much abused word.
Many problems arise and are created by the teachers themselves who very often mislead their students to the extent that they really believe that Ki is a form of magic. Here is one prime example from a very prominent Aikido magazine letters section.
Title: The Spirit of Protection
I am a carpenter and a 2nd kyu in Aikido, I was working in a large new home on repair work. I had finished my job and was heading for a long staircase when I saw the owners two year old son was heading for the same stairs from the opposite side, as he approached the top of the stairs he was watching me and not where he was going, I was too far away to grab him, I shot to him ( irimi ) and stuck my arm out to him, my “Ki” went through the boys face and out the back of his head, he fell backwards and started crying, his mother heard the crying and came up the stairs, when I told her what had happened she thanked me, I said “ Don’t thank me, thank Aikido”. That poor child may well now be as disturbed as the writer.
Try this one!
A 5th dan was asked in an interview “ Sensei have you ever had to use Aikido in the street, “ Oh yes” he replied”, Would you care to tell us sensei of this experience?
“Yes, I was in Chicago with some friends, and as we went out for the evening, I went to cross a busy road, and as I stepped into the road I saw this big yellow cab hurtling towards me, I have always believed that using your ki and staring straight at the driver he will stop. This driver did not stop, and suddenly I found myself back on the kerb and out of danger, I don’t know how I got there?” It was a strange experience.
Maybe that wasn’t dog faeces he was standing in after all.
Or this one.
Student contacts a teacher with approx 20 dan grades asking for the difference of Budo Yoshinkan, and AikiKai.
Answer: Thank you for your enquiry. Budo is all the martial arts, usually one gets a Budo grade
When they have 3rd dan grades in three seperate arts. Yoshinkan holds the basic principals like the scales of music. While AikiKai is the flow or in other words the melody. Once one knows the scales. Give it a try and see how you get on.
Harry Potter Ryu
There are many such misguided examples which I will refer to in future articles. It is this kind of nonsense that brings Aikido’s credibility in to doubt. I am fully aware that every martial art has its own version of “Harry Potter” in the various arts. What I fail to understand is that there are more of them in Aikido than all the other martial arts combined.
The reason that I am so critical and vociferous about Aikido is that I see the watering down of this great martial art which I have spent most of my life studying, teaching and promoting since 1957. I am often asked “Sensei, which do you consider the best and the worst of the martial arts?”
I always make the same reply “ All the martial arts are good , if there is a problem with any martial art, then it can only be with the person who misrepresents that particular martial art.
I have attempted to cover the introduction of Aikido to the West, and the involvement of other martial artists. Aikido progressed and developed in the UK by visiting existing dojos of all the other martial arts and offering to demonstrate and teach for free in the hope of starting a small class in the more receptive dojos In the early positive style of Aikido won through and this is a very important point to mark the early development of Western Aikido as most of the new converts were from other martial arts. I do not believe that we would have converted other martial artists to Aikido had it not been so strong and effective.
I referred to the many changes that have taken place over the past 47 years from its inception. Training and choreography and ki aikido and the many Harry Potters of the Aikido world. As a direct result of these articles I was contacted by a student in the UK Who told me he had stopped training in Aikido because his teacher stated that he was now going to teach them how to breath through their toes”.
The most important of all the changes that have taken place since 1955 are the changes in technique and its application, where as the early style Aikido was very compact and powerful. From the day of its introduction to the UK, aikido was always taught as a circular moving martial art with tori at the centre of all movement,. As uke the attacker made his attack, tori would turn within his own circle making it possible to carry out the technique in a small area of maybe four square feet.
We now see fantasy Aikidoists who need the space of a football pitch with so called “ masters “ twirling an agile uke on the end of one finger not once but several twirls before uke takes off on a low level flight across the length of mat.
Kenshiro Abbe sensei always taught uke would only “go” if the technique was effective.
I often hear of and I have seen these some of these instructors who say they can throw an opponent without even touching him,
Aikido for Real
I have read various accounts of the first Americans to practise Aikido in the early sixties .There were Americans practising Aikido in the UK in the late 1950’s at “The HUT”
The Abbe School of Budo. The Americans were members of the USAF stationed in the UK. They were always questioning “How would that work in the street?” And we would often finish up in the car park of The Hut after class and engage in some real Aikido. Afterwards everyone would finish up in the pub in great spirits and enjoy a few beers with our lumps.
Sunday mornings were always the best practise sessions with the dojo doors being locked
To all but the dan grades. It was then that the dan grades would fight each other for real.
This was the only way to truly evaluate your spirit and technique.
On one occasion I was fighting with Sensei Ken Williams (The British National Coach)
He hit me in the chest very hard, I fell to the mat clutching my chest and moaning loudly in agony, now, everyone knew that I didn’t go down for anyone and I never made a fuss, so now everyone is very concerned for me, as sensei Williams leaned over me asking
“Harry, are you OK” I suddenly lashed out with my fist at his head just making the slightest contact, he stepped back and kicked me in the head, putting an end to my cunning. After all it was for real.
The smallest of all the dan grades was Eric Dollimore, he was only about 5ft – 6ins in height and around 130 pounds. I always felt that Eric was avoiding me on these Sunday morning sessions, as he was about to leave the mat I said to him “ Eric! Would you like to try for real against me?”.
He just turned and said “Sorry Harry I have to be at my girlfriends home for lunch” as he
Left the mat I smiled to myself and thought “ That’s what I expected”.
The smugness did not last long as I heard a voice behind me say “OK then Harry, can we make it quick as I must get away”. It was Eric, for a moment I was surprised, then I thought to myself “ If you want it quick I will accommodate you “. I moved in to take him out with the one punch and the next thing I knew I had left the mat and gone straight through the dojo office partition wall.
I was still lying on the office floor and feeling stunned when I heard Eric’s voice call out “ See you Monday Harry, gotta go”. At first that was a shock to me, but it was also one of the most important lessons I have ever learned, I have never ever underestimated anyone since.
The Grading Lottery
In the 1950’s and 60’s if you ever saw a 5th dan or even a 6th dan you would be in awe of him. I now see so many multi grades , and to be honest they would be lucky to get a first dan in the early days . They make all kinds of claims knowing that if they were ever to be challenged and prove their mettle, they know they can clim that this is against the true principals of Aikido. Another favourite of these people is to juggle around with their grades and come up with multiples of matching grades. For a prime example of this abuse read the article on my website at British Aikido The Controversy.
Mitsusuke Harada sensei “5th dan”
Harada sensei was my Karate teacher in the 1960’s, he was then and still is 5yh dan at the Shotokan dojo in Tokyo. He was a student of the founder of modern day Karate Gichin Funakoshi sensei. He taught Karate to the USAF at the Kodokan dojo after the second world war where he was graded 5th dan by Funakoshi sensei in 1957.
Almost 50 years later Harada sensei is still 5th dan, stating that “ Any grade above fifth dan is totally pointless”.
Perhaps some of the grade accumulators should take that comment on board.
Derek Eastman and myself who both trained with Abbe sensei in the 50/60’s totally agree with Harda sensei’s statement.
It was because of the build up of the Harry Potter grades that are now so prevalent everywhere that Sensei Eastman and I decided to make 5th dan in line with Harada sensei as the highest grade attainable within our organisation.
I do not know the direction that the future of Aikido will take or whether we old timers can make a difference, whether we can or not I will still continue with the style of aikido that was taught to me in the early days in the UK, I was never much of a dancer anyway not even at the old Hammersmith Palais.
Акимаса,другия път аре вземи пусни само линк,че стана една страница на английски(колкото и да ми хареса статията)...
Това мнение е редактирано от Onq: 24 май 2005 - 03:35